Blog Entry

The Poll Attacks

Posted on: January 31, 2011 4:10 pm
Edited on: January 31, 2011 4:17 pm
 
You want to know why more than half of the AP voters have Duke outside of the top five?

Because that's where the Blue Devils belong.

You want to know why one AP voter has Duke inside of the top two?

Because ... I have no idea.

But I appreciate Ron Morris doing it because it makes for an easy Poll Attacks.

Associated Press poll: Where would you rank a team that's A) suffered two losses to currently unranked teams, B) beaten zero currently ranked teams, C) gone 2-2 against four unranked teams in true road games, and D) been without its best player since early December?

If your name is Ron Morris, you'd rank that team second.

You'd be crazy, of course.

But that's what you'd do.

Because that's what Ron did.

(You can click this link see for yourself thanks to PollSpeak.com)

Granted, this is better than last week, when Ron was the lone AP voter who had Duke ahead of Ohio State. But it's still wrong because the Blue Devils' resume wasn't worthy of a No. 2 ranking last week, and it sure isn't worthy of No. 2 ranking after Sunday's blowout loss at St. Johns. To prove this, let's compare the bodies of work of the school Ron has No. 2 (Duke) and the school I have No. 2 (Pittsburgh).

----- Duke -----

Record: 19-2
Wins over currently ranked teams: 0
Losses to currently unranked teams: 2 (Florida State, St. John's)
Losses to currently ranked teams: 0

----- Pitt -----

Record: 20-2
Wins over currently ranked teams: 4 (No. 3 Texas, No. 6 Connecticut, No. 13 Georgetown, No. 17 Syracuse)
Losses to currently unranked teams: 1 (Tennessee)
Losses to currently ranked teams: 1 (No. 9 Notre Dame)

Now allow me to recap: Pitt has at least four wins better than any win Duke possesses, and Pitt has only one loss to a currently unranked team whereas Duke has two. So the Panthers have more wins than Duke, better wins than Duke and two losses that aren't as bad as Duke's two losses. And yet Ron has Duke No. 2 and Pittsburgh No. 4. I bet you a briefcase full of Charlie Sheen's coke that he couldn't possibly defend that order with anything of substance.

Coaches poll: We might find out in March that Utah State is the next Butler or George Mason or whatever, at which point this version of the Poll Attacks will look stupid. But for now the coaches ranking the Aggies 21st is what looks stupid.

What's it based on?

A bunch of bad victories?

The Aggies have played two legitimate basketball teams (BYU and Georgetown) and lost both games by an average of 11.5 points. Beyond that, they haven't done much of note. All 20 of their wins are against teams ranked outside of the Top 100 of the latest RPI, meaning Utah State is 0-2 against the Top 100 and 20-0 against teams outside of the Top 100. Congratulations, I guess. But where I'm from, that's not good enough. You want to be ranked, beat somebody. Because beating a bunch of nobodies doesn't do much for me. Again, if Utah State proves me wrong in March, I'll apologize. But for now the Aggies are just a team stacking wins against weak competition after losing their only two games against good competition.

Comments

Since: Aug 8, 2008
Posted on: February 3, 2011 5:04 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

t's interesting how you use the top-25 only when it's convenient. Maybe you did "accidentally" leave out some critical data in trying to prove a point but your fatal error was still justifying your solution by completely dismissing the data you omitted as not relevant. Based on what? Your future predictions? You might be right that Arizona and Utah State will fall out of the rankings before season's end, but then again, you might be wrong. I'm sure you'll come back here to pound your chest if you are right, but will you also come back to eat crow if you're wrong? I wouldn't bet on it.

I will eat my crow if I am wrong, never claimed to always be right. But I most def will be pounding my chest ASAP! And dont take it to harshly, I actaully like watching Jimmer play, But I still dont think they are top 10 team in the nation. I will however say that is not near as fraudulent as SDSU being a top 5, to me thats just ridiculous and I hope everyone eats their crow who has stood behind them all this time boosting them as this great team.



Since: Oct 30, 2010
Posted on: February 3, 2011 4:24 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

But it was a unproven SDSU team with no quality wins to show why they should be ranked so high, not to mention they are a division rival you play twice a year. Now say you beat DUKE, Pitt, Ohio ST, Kansas or someone I thought was actually a quality top 10 team at least, I would take you guys more seriously.

The key word in your statement above is "thought". Please stop confusing facts for your opinions.

1. Whether you subsribe to the top-25 or the RPI or to both, or to neither, you cannot dispute the fact that according to the RPI (and the top-25), BYU has a top-10 win. Only Louisville does as well (UCONN, but for how long?) but Mizzou and Texas A&M do not. They each have losses to top-10 teams, which means they've had the opportunity and have therefore proven that they're not top-10 worthy. You can state all you want how you "think" SDSU is not worthy of their current ranking, doesn't really matter since it's only an opinion. I have a proven formula in the RPI and the expert opinion of nationwide pollsters on my side.

2. All three of those other teams each have a much worse loss on their schedule than BYU.

3. BYU has a better SOS than all three according to RPI and Sagarin (please present a better formula for SOS if you don't like it that does not include your own bias). It's really baseless to suppose that any team has a better schedule by looking at just a handful of opponents. You have to look at it all.

4. BYU also has an overall better record. They play in the #4 or #5 toughest conference, depending on who's ranking, which means the conference is not a cakewalk like the WAC or any other bottom-feeding midmajor conference

Let's recap the four criteria I just outlined:

1. BYU has a top-10 win, like only Louisville
2. BYU has the best worst loss of the four
3. BYU has the best SOS of the four
4. BYU has the best overall record of the four

So based on those four facts, how could anyone possibly justify BYU not being ranked higher than the other three? You can't do it and still look credible.


PS I didnt provide false data, I accidently left a couple bottom feeding top 25 or newbies out of the list by mistake. It still doesnt make a difference and all it did was add another top25 beaten opponent by gtown anyway. Next week I will be back and when those teams lose one game and are out of the top 25 again and my original statement will be precise.


It's interesting how you use the top-25 only when it's convenient. Maybe you did "accidentally" leave out some critical data in trying to prove a point but your fatal error was still justifying your solution by completely dismissing the data you omitted as not relevant. Based on what? Your future predictions? You might be right that Arizona and Utah State will fall out of the rankings before season's end, but then again, you might be wrong. I'm sure you'll come back here to pound your chest if you are right, but will you also come back to eat crow if you're wrong? I wouldn't bet on it.

You're right in that BYU looked horrible and undeserving of a top-10 ranking last night in Wyoming, no doubt about it. They still managed to pull out the win, in a hostile environment, at altitude of 7200 feet, with Jimmer having his worst game of the season. A sign of a good team is one that still manages the victory when everything seems stacked against. Can you find me a team that has not struggled and looked very mediocre in at least one game this season? Even mighty Ohio State has looked underwhelming in several games this year (Minnesota, Illinois, Penn State, Northwestern, Michigan).



Since: Aug 8, 2008
Posted on: February 3, 2011 3:11 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

The Poll Attacks

Skull,

Don’t be a jacka$$. You’re the one that provided the false data and now you’re going to say that it doesn’t really matter? Word of advice, if you’re going to try and pass off your opinion as fact, presenting erroneous data is not the way to go. You’ll get called out more often than not.

 

So let me recap for you Parrish, every of those teams have more top 25 wins then BYU (mizzou tied), Most of their losses are to better teams then the ones BYU lost too, not to mention they all play in better conferences, and yet you have them all behind BYU. I'll bet you that case of Charlies Fun Powder and allow you to retort and defend your stance with some substance, besides saying "I love Jimmer".

 

BYU’s two losses:

UCLA RPI 39-NR

New Mexico 53-NR

 

BYU’s top wins:

SDSU 5

Arizona 17

Utah State 29

UNLV 33-NR

St Mary’s 34-NR

 

 

Mizzou’s   four losses:

Georgetown 3-R

Texas 6-R

Texas A&M 27-R

Colorado 90-NR

 

Mizzou’s top wins:

Vanderbilt 25-NR

Old Dominion 31-NR

Illinois 37-R

Kansas State 43-NRA

 


Louisville’s 5 losses:

Georgetown 3-R

Kentucky 11-R

Villanova-R

Drexel 55-NR

Providence 98-NR

 

Louisville’s top wins:

UConn 7-R

West Virginia 13-R

St. John’s 24-NR

UNLV 33-NR

 

 

Texas A&M’s 4 losses:

Texas twice 6

Boston College 46

Nebraska 85

 

Texas A&M’s top wins:

Washington 25

Missouri 30

Temple 40

Kansas State 43

 

 

I didn’t include Georgetown and Villanova because I’m not convinced that BYU is a better team than either of them, however it’s close. As far as these 3, Mizzou, Louisville and Texas A&M, how can you not put BYU ahead of all of them? BYU has the best win of the four (SDSU) and their worst loss was against the #53 RPI (UCLA). Mizzou’s loss to Colorado (90) looks really bad, Louisville’s to Providence (98) is also bad, and Texas A&M’s to Nebraska (83) doesn’t help their case. BYU has just 2 losses overall, whereas Mizzou has 4, Louisville has 5 and Texas A&M has 4. And before you go off on how BYU has a soft schedule, just remember that the MWC is the 4th rated toughest conference this year and their SOS is #11. Mizzou =   72, Louisville = 27, Texas A&M = 40.

 

Based on that, not sure how you justify supporting those three programs being ranked ahead of BYU, unless, of course, you use your own subjective formulae.


It maybe close with BYU and these teams we speak off but they arent even close to gtown or nova.

BYU has 2 unranked losses. Mizzou has 1 unranked loss. L'ville 2 unranked losses. Tx am 2 unranked losses. Looks pretty even to me. Like I said, switch BYU with any of those teams into their conferences and they barely are a top 25 team. Also I will take Nebraska anyday over UCLA. I dont even care about the RPI or SOS because it is so majorly flawed this year its ridiculious. How does BYU have a stronger SOS then say Marquette? Marquette has played 9 teams in the top 25, 9!!!! Pitt has played 5. Cuse 4. ND 4. L'ville 5. These teams almost play a top 25 ranked team every other night and BYU playing the likes of teams that wont even make the NIT is a stronger schedule? Right...btw you guys looked so strong against Wyoming last night and SDSU's slaughter of Colorado State was also impressive and definitely looked like a top 5 team nationally. Overzealous writers frenzied this year to put some undefeated out west untested teams int the top 10 and now we are stuck with them there due to a lack of playing in a quality league. SDSU is a joke in the top 5 and we shall all see soon! I will say probably any other team ranked 4th that BYU would have beat I would probably give you guys more credit. But it was a unproven SDSU team with no quality wins to show why they should be ranked so high, not to mention they are a division rival you play twice a year. Now say you beat DUKE, Pitt, Ohio ST, Kansas or someone I thought was actually a quality top 10 team at least, I would take you guys more seriously. PS I didnt provide false data, I accidently left a couple bottom feeding top 25 or newbies out of the list by mistake. It still doesnt make a difference and all it did was add another top25 beaten opponent by gtown anyway. Next week I will be back and when those teams lose one game and are out of the top 25 again and my original statement will be precise.



Since: Oct 30, 2010
Posted on: February 2, 2011 4:34 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Skull,

Don’t be a jacka$$. You’re the one that provided the false data and now you’re going to say that it doesn’t really matter? Word of advice, if you’re going to try and pass off your opinion as fact, presenting erroneous data is not the way to go. You’ll get called out more often than not.

 

So let me recap for you Parrish, every of those teams have more top 25 wins then BYU (mizzou tied), Most of their losses are to better teams then the ones BYU lost too, not to mention they all play in better conferences, and yet you have them all behind BYU. I'll bet you that case of Charlies Fun Powder and allow you to retort and defend your stance with some substance, besides saying "I love Jimmer".

 

BYU’s two losses:

UCLA RPI 39

New Mexico 53

 

BYU’s top wins:

SDSU 5

Arizona 17

Utah State 29

UNLV 33

St Mary’s 34

 

 

Mizzou’s  four losses:

Georgetown 3

Texas 6

Texas A&M 27

Colorado 90

 

Mizzou’s top wins:

Vanderbilt 25

Old Dominion 31

Illinois 37

Kansas State 43

 


Louisville’s 5 losses:

Georgetown 3

Kentucky 11

Villanova

Drexel 55

Providence 98

 

Louisville’s top wins:

UConn 7

West Virginia 13

St. John’s 24

UNLV 33

 

 

Texas A&M’s 4 losses:

Texas twice 6

Boston College 46

Nebraska 85

 

Texas A&M’s top wins:

Washington 25

Missouri 30

Temple 40

Kansas State 43

 

 

I didn’t include Georgetown and Villanova because I’m not convinced that BYU is a better team than either of them, however it’s close. As far as these 3, Mizzou, Louisville and Texas A&M, how can you not put BYU ahead of all of them? BYU has the best win of the four (SDSU) and their worst loss was against the #53 RPI (UCLA). Mizzou’s loss to Colorado (90) looks really bad, Louisville’s to Providence (98) is also bad, and Texas A&M’s to Nebraska (83) doesn’t help their case. BYU has just 2 losses overall, whereas Mizzou has 4, Louisville has 5 and Texas A&M has 4. And before you go off on how BYU has a soft schedule, just remember that the MWC is the 4th rated toughest conference this year and their SOS is #11. Mizzou =  72, Louisville = 27, Texas A&M = 40.

 

Based on that, not sure how you justify supporting those three programs being ranked ahead of BYU, unless, of course, you use your own subjective formulae.




Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posted on: February 2, 2011 9:18 am
 

The Poll Attacks

TO ALL YOU   BIASED  FANS  
STOP
THINK
If you are in DIV1 then shouldn't you be treated fairly,
as an equal to all other teams, therefore should not
the record be the only issue...you all quote sos and who
who plays...garbage...div1 teams should all be treated the
same with no favortism.
Also is it fair that the NCAA let conferences steal teams
from other conferences and maybe create a MONOPOLY
TAKE THE BIG EAST LORD HOW MANY TEAMS IN CONFERENCE
Some say they may put 10 teams in WOW kinda makes you
think that sooner or later after they add their 25th team to the
conference that the odds of them winning with 10 or more teams
in really jumps up get my drift....so...NO CONFERENCE SHOULD BE
ALLOWED TO HAVE MORE THAN SIX YEP SIX TEAMS IN THE DANCE
I"VE SEEN NEW MEXICO STATE LEFT OUT WITH 28-7 record while
the major conferences get in teams over them with 10 11 12 even
13 LOSSES not fair  BIASED THROUGH AND THROUGH

EVERYONE"S ARGUMENT HOW MANY TOP 25 teams they play

wow top25  wow top25   FANTASY  FICTION NO SUCH THING UNLESS
DONE BY RECORD ONLY NOT BY HUMANS VOTING...DOES ANY1 THINK
MICH STATE DESERVES A TOP 25 RANKING I DONT  DOES ANY1 THINK
MICH STATE DESERVES A BID  I DONT>>>>>>>>
;

DUKE REPEATS SIMPLE




Since: Aug 8, 2008
Posted on: February 2, 2011 9:13 am
 

The Poll Attacks

Oh my god and ! How could I have over looked those huge wins against 2 teams fresh to the top 25 teams who will be out of it next week and have beaten absolutely no one? Its like the press is afraid to throw in real deserving teams like UNC or Marquette so they fill the bottom feeder with unproven teams each week just to pull them out for another unproven team next week with only a few losses who hasnt played anyone. Also you know who else beat Utah St too? The team I put right under them, Georgetown, so that makes 6 top 25 victories to 3 for georgetown over byu. Here is a simple math problem I am sure you 2 brains can get if you put your powers together:

wins over (Lou, Villanova,ND, Mizzou, WV,Utah State) > wins over (sdsu, Az, Utah state)


If your struggling that little arrow means greater then.


 Oh your other brilliant response:

It also should be noted that BYU has beat St Mary's and UNLV, two teams that have been in and out of the polls a couple different times this season.

It should be noted if we are talking about teams that a team beat that were once in the top 25 then theres not even a argument and even Duke would have 4 top 25 previously ranked teams victories. You guys are talking out your arses, your team is a one player , one dimensional, weak conference playing squad with no big victories except over another unproven weak conference rival that has been ranked soley on wins/loss column and not quality of play. I dont know that either of those teams would even be ranked if they played in any real conference and def not the big east.

Also did you not look at the losses? Your 2 losses come to unranked teams. All the teams I mentioned had losses to either ranked teams or better teams with the exception of L'ville and their loss to drexel. Any of those other teams that got victories are def better then the likes of NM and UCLA. So please try again.



Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posted on: February 2, 2011 9:11 am
 

The Poll Attacks

HERE"S MY LOGIC   PITTSBURG   WOW

WINS OVER
Rhode Island
ILL Chicago
N. Florida
R. Morris
Penn
Duquesne
Rider     
      

Deleware St
Md East SHOre
American
Providence
Marquette
Seton Hall
Depaul
Rutgers

So what they beat some teams in their own CONFERENCE  uconn georgetown syracuse
and they beat texas(who beat UNC BY ONE) 
 
PITTSBURG LIKE OHIO STATE  IS A    JOKE   They Schedule cup cake teams to BEEF
up their RECORD.
So if Pittsburg can be ranked so HIGH PLAYING NOBODY
then
BYU has a bettr resume  lots better

Yes ALL BYU WOULD BEAT PITT AND OHIO ST AND SO WOULD DUKE AND SO WOULD YOU READY
UNC  YEP THE TAR HEELS ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOB HANGING AROUND..So IF ALL YOUR LOGICS
ARE CORRECT THEN UNC LOSING TO TEXAS BY 1 AT TEXAS SHOULD tell you that the HEELS ARE
MUCH MUCH BETTR THAN THEIR RANKING AND WHEN THE BIG DANCE STARTS WATCH OUT

DUKE WILL REPEAT   THE BIGEAST AND BIG10 WILL FLAME OUT AGAIN

#1 SEEDS     BYU  OHIO STATE KANSAS  DUKE




Since: Feb 26, 2007
Posted on: February 1, 2011 9:54 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Big East is the best conference this year. Big Ten was way overrated

We've got a lot of confused people here who don't appreciate Parrish. Or good college basketball.

We've got a Kansas fan and a Cuse fan who don't like the Big Ten. Why?  They play the best defense in the country. By a mile.  They have the national team leaders in steals, free throws and turnover ratio. They won the Big Ten-ACC challenge again this year. And they've got the No. 1 team, who can only now be beaten by a Conference opponent--and probably will be . Depending on MSU's week, half the Conference is in the top 25 and NONE of those have lost four in a row,, like the Cuse. 

Hey Kansas Jayhawk:  wanna tell me the Big Twelve is this good?



Since: Oct 30, 2010
Posted on: February 1, 2011 6:32 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Gary,

You believe that Utah State has not proven that they belong in the top-25. Have they proven that they don't belong? Their two lone losses are against top-10 teams. How many two-loss teams in the country can say that? Sure, 100% of their wins have come against RPI 100+ teams but all that tells me is that they deserve to be ranked between RPI #3 Georgetown and #103 Long Beach State. Where exactly is certainly up for debate. They have racked up a lot of wins and if they were more deserving of a ranking closer to 100, then they probably would have a few more losses because teams of that caliber will falter against 100+ teams, especially on the road. That's why I don't have a problem with them being ranked. There's a lot of merit to a team that can go 20-2 with a number of those wins against teams teams in the top one-third of Division 1 basketball.



Since: Oct 30, 2010
Posted on: February 1, 2011 6:06 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

skullface,

Why don't you take a glance at a top-25 list for a change? Besides SDSU, BYU has beat Arizona and Utah State. That would be three ranked teams that they've beat. Kind of puts a big ol' fat monkey wrench in your entire argument, doesn't it?

It also should be noted that BYU has beat St Mary's and UNLV, two teams that have been in and out of the polls a couple different times this season.


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