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Gary Parrish

Parrish: The Thoughts  

Name: gary parrish
Gender: M
Member Since: February 8, 2007
Email: gparrish@cbs.com
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The Poll Attacks

Posted on: December 27, 2010 4:02 pm
Edited on: December 27, 2010 4:11 pm
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You want to punish Tom Izzo for scheduling aggressively?

Fine.

But now look. You're in the Poll Attacks.

(Details of AP ballots courtesy of PollSpeak.com.)

Associated Press poll: I have Michigan State ranked 15th in the Top 25 (and one).

The Spartans are 20th in the AP poll.

Both rankings are reasonable. But what's unreasonable is leaving the Spartans completely off a Top 25 ballot, which is what 13 AP voters did, and I don't understand why. Is it because they've suffered four losses against a ridiculous schedule? Because if that's the reason, that's a stupid reason. And, yes, I can explain. But let's first look at the losses.

They are to:
  • No. 1 Duke on the road
  • No. 4 Connecticut on a neutral court
  • No. 5 Syracuse on a neutral court
  • No. 13 Texas at home
I admit, that's not ideal. It's not what I expected (or what Izzo expected, either). But those are games most teams, if not all teams, ranked between 15th and 25th would also lose, point being that to punish Michigan State for losing those games is to punish Izzo for scheduling aggressively, and that's not right. Given the way some writers vote, Izzo could've scheduled a bunch of buy games, cruised and remained ranked in everybody's top five. But he instead decided to challenge his team and create some interesting matchups in November and December, and I'm not going to penalize him for doing it.

But who has Michigan State beaten, you ask?

Washington, for starters.

The Spartans have a neutral-court win over Washington.

So that means Michigan State has a win over the Pac-10 favorite and losses to four top 13 teams, and 13 writers somehow determined that the Spartans' body of work is unworthy of a Top 25 vote. It's dumb on the surface but even dumber when you dig deeper. This being the Poll Attacks, I dug deeper. And Gary Laney from The Advocate in Louisiana is going to wish I wouldn't have because his ballot is bogus.

He has Cincinnati ranked 22nd.

Now I could spend the next few sentences explaining how the Bearcats would likely have more than four losses if they played Michigan State's schedule and how the Spartans would probably be undefeated if they played Cincinnati's schedule, but I'm not going to do that. Instead, I'm going to tell you that Gary has Washington ranked 24th. That's fine with me in general because Washington's body of work is similar to Michigan State's. Washington is 8-3 instead of 9-4. But all three losses are to good teams -- specifically No. 11 Kentucky, No. 18 Texas A&M and No. 20 Michigan State. Yes, Michigan State. Michigan State beat Washington in the Maui Invitational, which is why Gary's ballot makes no sense.

How can you rank Washington but not rank Michigan State?

They have comparable losses, sure. But Washington has no good wins, and one of Washington's losses is to Michigan State. I mean, that's pretty basic stuff, right? I imagine it is to most, but it's not to Gary Laney. Or to Steven Bradley from The Journal in South Carolina. He has Washington 19th and Michigan State unranked. (Perhaps he's never heard of Maui. Who knows?) And then there's J.P. Butler from the Olean Times in New York. He didn't rank Michigan State but he has Baylor 21st even though Baylor has no good wins and three losses to unranked teams.

Question: If Baylor is 8-3 with no good wins and losses to unranked Gonzaga, unranked Washington State and unranked Florida State, what do you think the Bears would be if they had played a 13-game schedule featuring matchups with No. 1 Duke, No. 4 UConn, No. 5 Syracuse and No. 13 Texas?

Answer: A four-loss team, at least.

Steve DeShazo of the Free Lance-Star in Virginia?

He has Michigan State unranked, too. But he's got Oklahoma State at No. 23 and Cleveland State at No. 25 even though Oklahoma State is 11-1 with no good wins and a loss to unranked Virginia Tech while Cleveland State is 13-1 with no good wins and a double-digit loss to unranked West Virginia. So I guess the lesson is this: If you want Steve to notice you, schedule weak, win a lot of games against bums and lose to an unranked team. But don't you dare schedule aggressively a lose games to ranked opponents, because that'll get you dropped real fast.

Whatever.

Let's move on.

Coaches poll: As you can probably tell by the above Poll Attack, I hate voters who highlight teams simply for building records against weak opponents. It rewards a conservative approach, and I'm against that. So shame on the coaches who put Cincinnati (24 points), Oklahoma State (11 points) and Utah State (four points) on their ballots. I've already told you about Cincinnati (no good wins) and Oklahoma State (no good wins and one bad loss). Now let me tell you about Utah State, the WAC school that's 11-2 with no good wins. Granted, the Aggies' losses (to BYU and Georgetown) are better than OSU's losses (or Baylor's losses, for that matter). But there's not even a decent win on their resume. Thus, Utah State shouldn't be getting votes even though Utah State probably deserves votes as much as Cincinnati deserves votes, and more than Oklahoma State deserves votes. The point is that none of them deserve votes. Stacking wins against bad teams is nothing more than stacking wins against bad teams. It's fine for a school that projected to be strong in the preseason because you can still believe in what you thought you knew. But a gaudy record against a weak schedule should never make you start believing in somebody, which is why I won't start believing in Cincinnati, Cleveland State, Utah State or Oklahoma State until at least one of them records one win against a quality opponent. It would be nice if coaches who vote in the coaches poll did the same.
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Comments Add a Comment
rockchalk5
Since: Mar 30, 2009
Posted on: December 27, 2010 5:49 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Gary,

They didn't play well in those 4 losses and barely beat Oakland by a point.



goodoleUWdays
Since: Dec 2, 2007
Posted on: December 27, 2010 5:31 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Thanks for bringing this up, Gary...  As a Washington fan it was hard to watch them fall out of the polls while bigger "name" teams stayed in the rankings with worse losses.  What's really sad is that it discourages coaches from CHANCING playing bigger teams in the non-conference schedule...

When you double the negatives (1- you'll get punished in the polls if you lose, and 2- the higher ranked team will only play you on their home court most times), there's not a lot of incentive for doing it.

Ultimately, college basketball fans pay the price, when Duke schedules Little Teeny State, or Michigan State plays the janitors from Rest Stop #5 on I-90... (Not singling out teams-- everybody does it).  But alas, it pads the standings...

And also, on the flip side, the tiny schools earn a good portion of their athletics budget by scheduling those games...

Perhaps a better idea is to have a 4-game "preseason" that doesn't count against your regular season rankings, where teams get matched against like opponents-- BEFORE any polls come out.  Writers and coaches alike can size up the actual performance of the teams, rather than their "expected" talent, and the first polls would be more realistic, so that the first month of the season isn't a head-scratching whirlwind of "who shoulda been ranked where" arguments.  And teams that started unranked (and have a hill to climb to start to be recognized- like Texas A&M) or teams that are ranked too high (like Gonzaga) would have started closer to their real ability level.


TD44
Since: Nov 14, 2006
Posted on: December 27, 2010 5:17 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Not a bad article(which is surprising from this writer), but Memphis likely should have been thrown in the mix with MSU, but I will give that one a pass considering that MSU is the big name here.  The kicker here though and what makes this whole article null and void is that it is a poll with 2 members here:  coaches and media people.  Now, as we all know coaches certainly can carry grudges against other coaches or they could actually base their decision on a team they played, or the means to try and get mid-majors in etc.  As you can see there is plenty of reason for bias here.  Then the AP poll, well, nuff said really because all of those guys generally have a bias and of the polls, I certainly consider it the weakest of the 2 based on the fact that not only is there bias(most media sports writers have it), they also are very clueless overall(which is why this article is so puzzling to me).  Anyway, polls are just polls and don't mean much at the end of the day and he is actually right in that a team that puts up a tough schedule, should get consideration for that, but this is not uncommon and has gone on for years.  So it is really nothing new and likely not going to change.


dgrey
Since: Oct 26, 2009
Posted on: December 27, 2010 4:38 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

While I can understand you not wanting to rank Cincinnati, to bash coaches that did is a shame. They played the schedule handed to them and have delivered often in impressive fashion and unlike quite a few BCS schools they have went on the road. They were suppose to play Duke, but that game got yanked at the last minute and replaced with Oklahoma. They are no longer the name team that gets those TV matchups the networks put together. There are a lot of teams, including some in the top 25, who have failed to beat the dredges of the schedule.

The Bearcats have played hard and have typically taken their foot off the gas and played the backups a lot of minutes. They have neutral court victories over Dayton (Doubled them up in fact) and Oklahoma (In Oklahoma). They also went on the road to play pesky Miami (OH) whose head coach has played a brutal schedule (I think it was like 4 of the unbeatens) and personally said that outside of Duke, they are right there with all the others. While the scalps may not be on par with others, they certainly are on par with Baylor's victories (Which may not be a good thing in all honesty). We will learn about the Bearcats very soon as Big East play begins and that is when they can earn their stripes and either prove their worth or show they are just a product of the cupcakes they have feasted on. But these Bearcats look hungry and play with desire and even those pro-Huggins Bearcat fans that refuse to cheer for them have come around and are starting to see that something different is happening in Cincy this year.


sgostate1
Since: Mar 1, 2009
Posted on: December 27, 2010 4:35 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

But Gary, While MSU has played a tough schedule part of it is how they played. Sloppy, out of control, and unmotivated.  Granted they lost close ones to UConn and Duke. But they were never in the Syracuse game (on a neutral (sort of) Court and really struggled with tExas at home. So it is not as much as losing but how they played. So look at their victories. A close game with Washington decided in the last minute and unimpressive wins against Oakland and South Carolina. The rest were games against teams that are 200 to oblivion.

The rankings are not supposed to be solely on who you played in the past but how you are playing now. The ranking is now, not then and right now they are not very good.  MSU's close games are early on games agaisnt UConn  and Duke. Their recent games are pitiful performances agaisnt TX and Syracuse. And while Oakland is good Michigan didn't seem too troubled by them and Illinois and Purdue played them tougher.

Based upon what I've seen MSU has trouble with good shooting guards and a team with an inside game. That spells trouble against teams like Ohio St. Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Purdue. Minnesota will be warmed up having played Wisc. and MSU will be rusty and slow when the season opens for them on Friday after eight days off. Look for the Spartans to finish about 5th in the Big Ten unless something drastic changes. And that is not top 25, or one, material.



SkyHawk09
Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posted on: December 27, 2010 4:35 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Gary, Steve DeShazo is quickly becoming a Hall of Famer in your attacks. What is this, three straight weeks?


Bsquared-2
Since: Mar 16, 2009
Posted on: December 27, 2010 4:28 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Gary based on your argument to rank MSU, can't the same argument be made to rank Memphis?  Tigers have only 2 losses to teams in the top 10.  Is the Washington win the only thing holding MSU in the top 25 in your mind?  I don't really care either way but you said:

  "But what's unreasonable is leaving the Spartans completely off a Top 25 ballot, which is what 13 AP voters did, and I don't understand why. Is it because they've suffered four losses against a ridiculous schedule? Because if that's the reason, that's a stupid reason."

Here I fixed the quote for you below.  Wink

But what's unreasonable is leaving the Memphis Tigers completely off a Top 25 ballot, which is what I did, and I don't understand why. Is it because they've suffered two losses against two top 10 teams? Because if that's the reason, that's a stupid reason.  



About Parrish: The Thoughts
Gary Parrish is CBSSports.com's college basketball columnist. Contrary to popular belief, he does not use a tanning bed or anything unnatural to color his skin. He was simply tan the afternoon he took that picture, the result of lounging at a Las Vegas pool for five consecutive days.
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