Blog Entry

The Poll Attacks

Posted on: December 14, 2009 6:42 pm
Edited on: December 14, 2009 6:52 pm
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Roger Clarkson is trying to be stubborn.

Fine with me.

I'll Poll Attack him again.

Let's do this!

AP poll: First, let's revisit what I wrote about Roger last week.

(And I quote ...)

"He has Pittsburgh ranked 18th even though Pitt has no relevant players from last season's team, no good wins and a 16-point loss to Texas. There is absolutely nothing -- not preseason expectations, not current body of work, not anything -- to suggest Pitt is one of the best 25 teams in America, much less No. 18. But that's where Roger has the Panthers ranked. And would you believe that's not even the dumbest thing on his ballot?"

From there, I went on to destroy Roger's ballot -- you can read last week's Poll Attacks here -- and I thought he'd take the hint, learn a lesson, and we'd all be better for it. Instead, this dude ranked Pitt again despite Pitt losing by double-digits to an Indiana team that might finish last in the Big Ten.

WTF?

Is public humiliation not enough?

Is he just testing me?

And though you might think I'd hold myself to a higher standard and not pick on the same person's ballot every week, you'd be wrong to think that. I will do this every Monday until Pitt is removed from Roger's ballot. So stay tuned. And Roger's crazy if he assumed I'd be too focused on him having Pitt at No. 24 to notice that he also inexplicably has Washington at No. 16, because I noticed that, too. But I'll use the Coaches poll portion of the Poll Attacks to explain my issue with Washington.

Coaches poll:
Washington is 6-2 with both losses coming to ranked teams -- the first to No. 20 Texas Tech, the second to No. 11 Georgetown. But none of the Huskies' six wins are notable, meaning they are 6-2 with zero good wins. Meantime, Dayton is 7-2 with both losses also coming to ranked teams -- the first to No. 9 Villanova, the second to No. 22 Kansas State. But to help offset those losses, the Flyers have a win over No. 15 Georgia Tech in addition to wins over Creighton, George Mason and Old Dominion.

So to summarize, Dayton's losses are certainly no worse than Washington's, and Dayton absolutely has better wins than Washington. This cannot be debated. And yet Washington is ranked 21st with 146 points. And Dayton is ranked 41st with nine points.

Seriously, could anybody reasonably suggest Washington's body of work is better than Dayton's body of work?

If so, I can't see how.

(Worth noting: Roger has Washington at No. 16 and Dayton unranked. Also worth noting: Roger has Georgia Tech at No. 19. You know, the same Georgia Tech that Dayton beat on a neutral court.)

The dumb coaches (and Roger) also have Washington (6-2 record with no good wins) ahead of Kansas State (9-1 record, only loss to No. 25 Ole Miss with wins over Dayton, Washington State, Xavier and No. 23 UNLV), and that's twice as dumb as having Washington over Dayton. So I don't know why I even worry with this stuff, except for that it gives me something to do on Monday afternoons.
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Comments

Since: Mar 17, 2008
Posted on: December 17, 2009 12:28 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

I'm in agreement with R1ZZO.  Once all the games are played, everything will pan itself out for the tournament.  So somebody may get dropped to a 10 when they deserved a 8 but those teams almost never make it to the sweet 16 anyways.  Notice I say almost because I know somebody will want to correct my mistake by thinking of one of the 6 counterexamples like Davidson two years ago.  The basketball rankings go under less scrutiny because there are more games so people tend to trust them more than the football rankings.  I still think there is a lot of problems with the rankings and college football in general but that's for a different post.  I think Syracuse is the real deal however.  I think they could get a #2 seed for sure under Boeheim.  Don't underestimate a coach that has won it all.



Since: Mar 19, 2007
Posted on: December 15, 2009 8:27 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Hey Turkey, you're a turkey.  We use the 'body of work' part in order to tell which team looks like they've been tested and rose to the occasion or fallen.  That is the mark of a good team if they can compete with the best and win a few.  I think Dayton is better than Washington because they actually have a quality win under their belt and Washington doesn't.  That is why I think they are better duh.  Not the case in the analogy with Kansas and Syracuse because I still think Kansas is a better team than Syracuse.  Syracuse has probably played the toughest schedule of the undefeateds but I still think Kansas is better because of how they have won.  It is only part of the equation when you consider the body of work portion.HAHA - Thanks for making my point!  You agree that SU has a better body of work than Kansas, but you think Kansas should be #1 because you still think they're a better team.  I 100% agree with that.  However, I also believe that logic needs to be used throughout the rankings.  That's why I don't have St. John's in my top 25.  Their body of work has then in there, but I use common sense.  If people still believe WASH is better than Dayton, then that's how they should vote...NOT based on body of work alone.



Since: Nov 25, 2009
Posted on: December 15, 2009 7:27 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Who cares about all of this poll garbage.  Once March comes around, no one will be talking about who got screwed in the December rankings.



Since: Nov 17, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 5:07 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Twocoach-

13 quality players were thrown at Memphis and Kansas won by 2. Memphis isn't even ranked. Syracuse and UK, both undefeated teams with better wins. Kansas hasn't proved anything, even with their "quality" players. How can you say Kansas is a better team when they haven't even been challenged yet? The sad thing is, Kansas doesn't play a quality team until they match up with Tennessee in January.  After watching Syracuse and Kentucky beat top 25 teams, I'm going to say that those two teams are better..based on fact, not assumptions.

So I guess we can ASSUME Kansas is number one for now, even though that is a guess based on experience/talent. Talent, UK is a more talented team. I would take Talent over Experience anyday





Since: Jan 20, 2007
Posted on: December 15, 2009 4:49 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Thats the only thing Gary each week that I dont get. Someone like Roger with Pitt, agreed is absurd, but I dont think its all that far-fetched to think someone like Washington with a backcourt of Gaddy and Thomas is superior to Dayton still even if they haven't shown it or gotten off to a good start. End of the day if someone thinks Washington is a better team than Dayton and its not ABSOLUTELY impossible to justify by records, then I have no problem with them ranking them so accordingly.



Since: Oct 8, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 4:02 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

You must not have been paying attention, or have seen UK play if you say Syracuse is the only team you're worried about come tournament time. UK's starting 5 is every bit as talented as Kansas and the last time I checked, you can only play 5 at a time.

No one is questioning whether or not KU has an elite team, they do. But do they have the quality wins to be #1 so far? Probably not. Syracuse has, with UK a close second. But as many have posted, accomplishments in College basketball polls "do not matter" and it is the perceived best team. I can't wait until tournament time, to see how it all plays out. The top seed in the tournament usually doesn't take it all, it's usually a lower number one or a number 2 seed. I'd love to see a Final Four with KU,UK,Syracuse and Texas. Syracuse may not be as talented as the other 3 teams, but they have something special going on there. Nobody will want to play UK in March once John Wall, Patrick Patterson and DeMarcus Cousins have 30 games together under their belt as a team.

Let the heavyweights slug it out and see who really is #1, until then, let the teams' accomplishments speak for themselves.




Since: Jan 17, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 3:27 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Nah, body of work is just a tool to help identify who MIGHT be better than someone else. This helps sort out everyone below about tenth in the polls, becuase almost all of those teams have some issues and weaknesses of some type that make head-to-head comparison difficult.

I don't need a body of work to justify putting KU #1. Anybody who says Syracuse should be #1 becuase they have played who they play is getting a little amped up on caffeine and hype.



Since: Jan 17, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 3:16 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

i havent heard a single person on tv, or this website actually own up to being completely wrong about syracuse pre season. they are a title contender and analysts are still afraid to admit it despite clearly the best resume in the country right now. I am still not 100% sold on Syracuse right now. They have looked good, but they benefit tremendously in the non-conference by playing their zone defense and by almost never playing road games. No other team really practises at all against the type of zone that Syracuse plays. Once Syracuse gets into conference play and plays against teams that are more familiar with their defense, I think that they will start to get some losses hung on them.

but kansas really looks like a number 1 team with all those impressive cupcake beatings this year. their best win isn't as impressive as our 3rd best win yet they are #1.
If the name of the poll was "Best Resume" then I would definitely vote for Syracuse. Unfortunately for Syracuse, the poll is Top 25 teams, and for that I would vote Kansas hands down.

Frankly, lets take a look at that resume now that it has been a few weeks. The Cal win doesn't look as good as it did at the time now that it appears they were hugely overrated and have also lost to Ohio State and New Mexico. The North Carolina win was against a team of really young players that had no clue what to do against a zone defense. The Florida game was a win against a 2-time NIT team with only a 3 point win over a horribly injured and overrated Michigan State and a bunch of nobodies.

Texas, North Carolina, Michigan State, and Kentucky have what shape up to be the nastiest schedules of any teams in the nation this season.



Since: Mar 17, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 3:04 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Hey Turkey, you're a turkey.  We use the 'body of work' part in order to tell which team looks like they've been tested and rose to the occasion or fallen.  That is the mark of a good team if they can compete with the best and win a few.  I think Dayton is better than Washington because they actually have a quality win under their belt and Washington doesn't.  That is why I think they are better duh.  Not the case in the analogy with Kansas and Syracuse because I still think Kansas is a better team than Syracuse.  Syracuse has probably played the toughest schedule of the undefeateds but I still think Kansas is better because of how they have won.  It is only part of the equation when you consider the body of work portion.



Since: Jan 17, 2008
Posted on: December 15, 2009 3:03 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Kansas is #1 becuase they have the best team, period. No other roster has as much talent, depth and experience at every position on the floor as Kansas. This isn't the BCS computer rankings, this is a POLL of who voters believe are the best teams. Yes, some of the people polled clearly do not pay much attention when they fill out their ballots, but I haven't seen a team that looks like they are better than KU yet. I will give props to Syracuse, becuase they are the only team that I am really concerned about come tourney time.

Just because Team A beats a mediocre Team B and Team C beats a good Team D, doesn't mean that Team B is better than Team A. It only means that they currently have a better resume for a potential at-large bid if resumes are compared at this exact moment in time.

Anyone who thinks that KU isn't good because of the quality of their opponents is just trying to talk themselves into believing that their team is better than Kansas. Oh, did I mention that KU also gets an experienced junior 3-point sharpshooter and a 7 footer added to their eligible roster this weekend? Have fun playing against any combination of 13 different quality players that KU can throw at you.



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